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	<title>Comments on: Radical Grace: The Only Message for England!</title>
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	<link>http://planetaugsburg.wordpress.com/2008/02/09/radical-grace-the-only-message-for-england/</link>
	<description>"Where Law &#38; Gospel are rightly divided and a Diet of Worms is not the result of losing a bet."</description>
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		<title>By: Ron Smith</title>
		<link>http://planetaugsburg.wordpress.com/2008/02/09/radical-grace-the-only-message-for-england/#comment-248</link>
		<dc:creator>Ron Smith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Mar 2008 04:58:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://planetaugsburg.wordpress.com/?p=114#comment-248</guid>
		<description>Did it yesterday :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Did it yesterday <img src='http://s.wordpress.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: catechismatic95</title>
		<link>http://planetaugsburg.wordpress.com/2008/02/09/radical-grace-the-only-message-for-england/#comment-247</link>
		<dc:creator>catechismatic95</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Mar 2008 03:46:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://planetaugsburg.wordpress.com/?p=114#comment-247</guid>
		<description>I love your last two sentences, if you don&#039;t mind, I&#039;m going to put you on our blogroll, and if you&#039;d be so gracious you can do the same for us as well ;)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I love your last two sentences, if you don&#8217;t mind, I&#8217;m going to put you on our blogroll, and if you&#8217;d be so gracious you can do the same for us as well <img src='http://s.wordpress.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: catechismatic95</title>
		<link>http://planetaugsburg.wordpress.com/2008/02/09/radical-grace-the-only-message-for-england/#comment-246</link>
		<dc:creator>catechismatic95</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Mar 2008 03:42:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://planetaugsburg.wordpress.com/?p=114#comment-246</guid>
		<description>Amen!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Amen!</p>
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		<title>By: Ron Smith</title>
		<link>http://planetaugsburg.wordpress.com/2008/02/09/radical-grace-the-only-message-for-england/#comment-243</link>
		<dc:creator>Ron Smith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Mar 2008 23:02:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://planetaugsburg.wordpress.com/?p=114#comment-243</guid>
		<description>Over time, the reformed churches in America have embraced a more revivalistic/individualistic view of the covenant, which relegates the sacraments to mere symbols. Not all Presbyterians are Presbyterians &lt;i&gt;inwardly&lt;/i&gt;. :) Some are really Baptists who water their kids at their baby dedications.

There is currently an ongoing effort within the more conservative American Presbyterian churches to bring back Calvin&#039;s Calvinism. It has been met with much criticism and many have noted the similarity between this so-called new sacramentalism and the historic Lutheran tradition. Some have gone even further and called it the road back to Rome. But this high view of the sacraments was held by everyone who paved the way out of Rome.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Over time, the reformed churches in America have embraced a more revivalistic/individualistic view of the covenant, which relegates the sacraments to mere symbols. Not all Presbyterians are Presbyterians <i>inwardly</i>. <img src='http://s.wordpress.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' />  Some are really Baptists who water their kids at their baby dedications.</p>
<p>There is currently an ongoing effort within the more conservative American Presbyterian churches to bring back Calvin&#8217;s Calvinism. It has been met with much criticism and many have noted the similarity between this so-called new sacramentalism and the historic Lutheran tradition. Some have gone even further and called it the road back to Rome. But this high view of the sacraments was held by everyone who paved the way out of Rome.</p>
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		<title>By: catechismatic95</title>
		<link>http://planetaugsburg.wordpress.com/2008/02/09/radical-grace-the-only-message-for-england/#comment-240</link>
		<dc:creator>catechismatic95</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Mar 2008 15:44:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://planetaugsburg.wordpress.com/?p=114#comment-240</guid>
		<description>Well I&#039;m encouraged by what I see here, there are obviously some points I disagree with or that need to be clarified more, but I think over all there is alot we agree upon.  I had a feeling that semantics and general internet communication were getting in the way of what we were trying to say. ;)  Also, I loved your comment about baptism it sounds so sweet in the ears of a Lutheran ;)  Especially because I can give you a quote from Luther that sounds exactly like Calvin&#039;s.

BTW, I&#039;m very intrigued by Calvin&#039;s view of the Sacraments, it seems very different to the standard PCA understanding, and almost cryptically Lutheran.  You&#039;ll have to tell me more.  Thanks for stopping by, and you and I can get a blog friendship going!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well I&#8217;m encouraged by what I see here, there are obviously some points I disagree with or that need to be clarified more, but I think over all there is alot we agree upon.  I had a feeling that semantics and general internet communication were getting in the way of what we were trying to say. <img src='http://s.wordpress.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' />   Also, I loved your comment about baptism it sounds so sweet in the ears of a Lutheran <img src='http://s.wordpress.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' />   Especially because I can give you a quote from Luther that sounds exactly like Calvin&#8217;s.</p>
<p>BTW, I&#8217;m very intrigued by Calvin&#8217;s view of the Sacraments, it seems very different to the standard PCA understanding, and almost cryptically Lutheran.  You&#8217;ll have to tell me more.  Thanks for stopping by, and you and I can get a blog friendship going!</p>
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		<title>By: Ron Smith</title>
		<link>http://planetaugsburg.wordpress.com/2008/02/09/radical-grace-the-only-message-for-england/#comment-239</link>
		<dc:creator>Ron Smith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Mar 2008 15:18:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://planetaugsburg.wordpress.com/?p=114#comment-239</guid>
		<description>I think we agree more than we realize. I think that for fear of legalism, many treat God&#039;s Law as if it is the problem. But I think the apostle is clear that sin is the problem and the Law is simply a light shed on that problem. I believe we should be able to sing the praises of God’s Law with David in the Psalms:

&lt;blockquote&gt; Psalm 19:9-11
 9 The fear of the LORD is pure, 
       enduring forever. 
       The ordinances of the LORD are sure 
       and altogether righteous. 

 10 They are more precious than gold, 
       than much pure gold; 
       they are sweeter than honey, 
       than honey from the comb. 

 11 By them is your servant warned; 
       in keeping them there is great reward.
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

A man is justified (as we historically define the term) when the Holy Spirit applies the redemption purchased by Christ to him by working faith in him. So, I hold to Sola Fide. But I do not think it against Sola Fide to enquire about the nature of the Fide. Justifying faith is no dead faith but worketh in love. (cf &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.reformed.org/documents/wcf_with_proofs/ch_XI.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;WCF XI.II&lt;/a&gt; where they allude to both Paul in Gal 5:6 and James chapter 2) The reformers wanted to be careful not to say that we are justified by works, but they also wanted to be careful to say that we cannot be justified without them. So they basically made obedience the essence of faith, which I believe is consistent with James 2.

But scripturally, this is not the only use of the word &quot;justify&quot;. Jesus, for instance, is justified at the resurrection. So there is the idea of vindication. Abraham was &quot;counted righteous&quot; in Genesis 15, but Hebrews 11 says he was already operating by faith back in Genesis 12 when he obeyed God&#039;s call to move to another country. So, it appears that God at various points in Abraham&#039;s life tested Him (like Genesis 22), and Abraham trusted Him and was declared righteous (or justified) each time. But I recognize that this is not the historical reformed definition of the word.

A man is sanctified as the Holy Spirit continues to work faith in him and that faith becomes flesh, i.e. he dies more and more to sin and lives more and more unto righteousness. This is not him who lives, but Christ living in him.

A man&#039;s hope should rest squarely on the finished work of Christ, but &lt;a href=&quot;http://solafidelity.wordpress.com/2008/03/05/now-accepting-apologies/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;as Calvin said&lt;/a&gt;, we are weak and we doubt, so God has given us signs like baptism to affirm our relationship with Jesus and connection with His redemptive work. Also, a life of growing holiness before God (not perfection, obviously) proves the genuineness of our faith and thus strengthens our assurance (cf a href=&quot;http://www.reformed.org/documents/wcf_with_proofs/ch_XVI.html&quot;&gt;WCF XVI.II&lt;/a&gt;)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think we agree more than we realize. I think that for fear of legalism, many treat God&#8217;s Law as if it is the problem. But I think the apostle is clear that sin is the problem and the Law is simply a light shed on that problem. I believe we should be able to sing the praises of God’s Law with David in the Psalms:</p>
<blockquote><p> Psalm 19:9-11<br />
 9 The fear of the LORD is pure,<br />
       enduring forever.<br />
       The ordinances of the LORD are sure<br />
       and altogether righteous. </p>
<p> 10 They are more precious than gold,<br />
       than much pure gold;<br />
       they are sweeter than honey,<br />
       than honey from the comb. </p>
<p> 11 By them is your servant warned;<br />
       in keeping them there is great reward.
</p></blockquote>
<p>A man is justified (as we historically define the term) when the Holy Spirit applies the redemption purchased by Christ to him by working faith in him. So, I hold to Sola Fide. But I do not think it against Sola Fide to enquire about the nature of the Fide. Justifying faith is no dead faith but worketh in love. (cf <a href="http://www.reformed.org/documents/wcf_with_proofs/ch_XI.html" rel="nofollow">WCF XI.II</a> where they allude to both Paul in Gal 5:6 and James chapter 2) The reformers wanted to be careful not to say that we are justified by works, but they also wanted to be careful to say that we cannot be justified without them. So they basically made obedience the essence of faith, which I believe is consistent with James 2.</p>
<p>But scripturally, this is not the only use of the word &#8220;justify&#8221;. Jesus, for instance, is justified at the resurrection. So there is the idea of vindication. Abraham was &#8220;counted righteous&#8221; in Genesis 15, but Hebrews 11 says he was already operating by faith back in Genesis 12 when he obeyed God&#8217;s call to move to another country. So, it appears that God at various points in Abraham&#8217;s life tested Him (like Genesis 22), and Abraham trusted Him and was declared righteous (or justified) each time. But I recognize that this is not the historical reformed definition of the word.</p>
<p>A man is sanctified as the Holy Spirit continues to work faith in him and that faith becomes flesh, i.e. he dies more and more to sin and lives more and more unto righteousness. This is not him who lives, but Christ living in him.</p>
<p>A man&#8217;s hope should rest squarely on the finished work of Christ, but <a href="http://solafidelity.wordpress.com/2008/03/05/now-accepting-apologies/" rel="nofollow">as Calvin said</a>, we are weak and we doubt, so God has given us signs like baptism to affirm our relationship with Jesus and connection with His redemptive work. Also, a life of growing holiness before God (not perfection, obviously) proves the genuineness of our faith and thus strengthens our assurance (cf a href=&#8221;http://www.reformed.org/documents/wcf_with_proofs/ch_XVI.html&#8221;&gt;WCF XVI.II)</p>
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		<title>By: catechismatic95</title>
		<link>http://planetaugsburg.wordpress.com/2008/02/09/radical-grace-the-only-message-for-england/#comment-238</link>
		<dc:creator>catechismatic95</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Mar 2008 14:47:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://planetaugsburg.wordpress.com/?p=114#comment-238</guid>
		<description>OK, I don&#039;t think I&#039;m making myself clear enough, and I think you might have me &quot;penned&quot; as an Anti-nomian, which I am certainly not.  When I said that we must not enslave ourselves to endless demands, I wasn&#039;t saying that the Law must be thrown out.  I was simply saying that seeking justification or salvation through observance of the Law leaves a man with endless demands that he could never fulfill, and ultimately results in eternal death.  

We know, however, that as Christians, Christ fulfilled the righteous requirements of the law by becoming a curse for us.  In light of this, we are free to serve God and our neighbors not out of fulfilling obligations (because Christ has already satisfied the Law), but out of a free and happy spirit. We can only do that though, if we stay mindful of the fact that Christ is the only hope for sinful men.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>OK, I don&#8217;t think I&#8217;m making myself clear enough, and I think you might have me &#8220;penned&#8221; as an Anti-nomian, which I am certainly not.  When I said that we must not enslave ourselves to endless demands, I wasn&#8217;t saying that the Law must be thrown out.  I was simply saying that seeking justification or salvation through observance of the Law leaves a man with endless demands that he could never fulfill, and ultimately results in eternal death.  </p>
<p>We know, however, that as Christians, Christ fulfilled the righteous requirements of the law by becoming a curse for us.  In light of this, we are free to serve God and our neighbors not out of fulfilling obligations (because Christ has already satisfied the Law), but out of a free and happy spirit. We can only do that though, if we stay mindful of the fact that Christ is the only hope for sinful men.</p>
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		<title>By: catechismatic95</title>
		<link>http://planetaugsburg.wordpress.com/2008/02/09/radical-grace-the-only-message-for-england/#comment-233</link>
		<dc:creator>catechismatic95</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Mar 2008 11:03:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://planetaugsburg.wordpress.com/?p=114#comment-233</guid>
		<description>I tell you what, answer these questions, and then we will go from there:

How is a man justified?

How is a man sanctified?

Where should a mans hope rest?

They&#039;re not meant to trap you, but I just want to know where you are coming from, and like I said earlier, we can go from there.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I tell you what, answer these questions, and then we will go from there:</p>
<p>How is a man justified?</p>
<p>How is a man sanctified?</p>
<p>Where should a mans hope rest?</p>
<p>They&#8217;re not meant to trap you, but I just want to know where you are coming from, and like I said earlier, we can go from there.</p>
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		<title>By: Ron Smith</title>
		<link>http://planetaugsburg.wordpress.com/2008/02/09/radical-grace-the-only-message-for-england/#comment-231</link>
		<dc:creator>Ron Smith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Mar 2008 07:36:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://planetaugsburg.wordpress.com/?p=114#comment-231</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;You say it is “sin” that kills and not the law, but I say, it is the law (God’s Holiness) which condemns sin.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

St. Paul said that it was sin and not the Law that kills (Romans 7:10-12). The Law was meant for life. And now that we are freed from sin, we are free to obey the Law (Romans 6).

&lt;blockquote&gt;why would we want to enslave ourselves to a road of endless demands which can never be fulfilled. On the contrary, proper use of the Law should always drive a sinner to Christ.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

First,  that is only one use of the Law, according to Lutheran standards as I understand them in the Articles of Concord. What about the third use of the Law (&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.bookofconcord.org/fc-ep.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;See chapter 6&lt;/a&gt;)? Further, God&#039;s laws are not burdensome. We were slaves to sin, not the Law, but now we are slaves to righteousness which can only be defined by God&#039;s Law. (Romans 6 again)

How do you handle Paul&#039;s statement in Romans 3:31 that we establish the Law through faith? You say the Law presents us with “endless demands which can never be fulfilled”, but Romans  13:8-10 says we can fulfill the Law by loving our brethren. 

So, as I see it in both our traditions as well as biblically, the Law is still demanded by God, even more so to those who are in Christ. We must continue to work out our salvation with fear and trembling because He is working in us to will and to do according to His good pleasure (Phil 2:12-13).

Grace and peace in Christ.
Ron</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>You say it is “sin” that kills and not the law, but I say, it is the law (God’s Holiness) which condemns sin.</p></blockquote>
<p>St. Paul said that it was sin and not the Law that kills (Romans 7:10-12). The Law was meant for life. And now that we are freed from sin, we are free to obey the Law (Romans 6).</p>
<blockquote><p>why would we want to enslave ourselves to a road of endless demands which can never be fulfilled. On the contrary, proper use of the Law should always drive a sinner to Christ.</p></blockquote>
<p>First,  that is only one use of the Law, according to Lutheran standards as I understand them in the Articles of Concord. What about the third use of the Law (<a href="http://www.bookofconcord.org/fc-ep.html" rel="nofollow">See chapter 6</a>)? Further, God&#8217;s laws are not burdensome. We were slaves to sin, not the Law, but now we are slaves to righteousness which can only be defined by God&#8217;s Law. (Romans 6 again)</p>
<p>How do you handle Paul&#8217;s statement in Romans 3:31 that we establish the Law through faith? You say the Law presents us with “endless demands which can never be fulfilled”, but Romans  13:8-10 says we can fulfill the Law by loving our brethren. </p>
<p>So, as I see it in both our traditions as well as biblically, the Law is still demanded by God, even more so to those who are in Christ. We must continue to work out our salvation with fear and trembling because He is working in us to will and to do according to His good pleasure (Phil 2:12-13).</p>
<p>Grace and peace in Christ.<br />
Ron</p>
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		<title>By: catechismatic95</title>
		<link>http://planetaugsburg.wordpress.com/2008/02/09/radical-grace-the-only-message-for-england/#comment-230</link>
		<dc:creator>catechismatic95</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Mar 2008 05:54:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://planetaugsburg.wordpress.com/?p=114#comment-230</guid>
		<description>I also commented on your post, but it&#039;s not showing up I think.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I also commented on your post, but it&#8217;s not showing up I think.</p>
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